Justin Maxson

Original intro/outro music:
"'Till I See Stars" by The Parachute Brigade

Transcript

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The sun does not always shine in West Virginia, but the people always do. I'm delighted to be here. These are historic times in Appalachia. A lot has changed, a lot is changing now, and a lot still needs to change. In our podcast, we talk with change makers right square in the middle of all this, working to ensure the change is for the good. You're listening to Change in the Coalfields, a podcast by Coalfield Development. I'm your host, Brandon Dennison. Welcome to Change in the Coalfields. My name is Brandon. I'm your host and excited to have Justin Maxson as our guest. Justin has been a change maker and a leader in Central Appalachia in a couple of different forms and fashions, and he's been a change maker and a leader for other areas as well. I consider Justin an expert on rural community economic development. Justin, I've looked up to you. I've learned from you. We've been able to do some good work together as well, and I appreciate your time today. Well, it's a pleasure to be here. I feel the same about you and all of the work that you've done. It's really been amazing. I actually remember the first time I talked to you when I was at the Mountain Association, you were still trying to figure out what you wanted to do in West Virginia and were focused on a housing strategy. This is probably 15 years ago, and here you are. The strategy has iterated, for sure. Yeah. Well, this is such an important topic, and so much good stuff has been going on. I should say I feel a little bit disconnected from it at the moment, but let's not have that get in the way. Sure thing. Well, yeah, and I'm interested. Change is a trajectory, but it's not a linear trajectory. It's this up, down, forward, backwards, messy thing, and our work plays out that way. Justin, let's go all the way back to the beginning. Where did you grow up? Gosh, all over the place. Most of my parents are from Kentucky. My dad's people are from Estill County, Ravenna, which is on the edge of the mountains. My mom's folks are from Lexington, Kentucky. We grew up up and down the East Coast, coming back to Kentucky in the summers, and then I moved to Kentucky, gosh, for the first time when I was probably 10, and lived in Kentucky through high school. And then I went away from college, but I had this love disgruntled relationship with Kentucky, and kept trying to get out of it, and it would drag me back, and get out of it, and it would drag me back. Then, let's see, I lived in Berea for about 13 years when I was at the Mountain Association, and have been out of Kentucky now almost eight or nine years. Gotcha. And what did your, you said you sort of grew up up and down the East Coast, what did your parents do for work? It's also a good question. For a while, my dad worked at banks, and then at colleges and universities. And my mom was a homemaker, and then she worked in retail, but it sort of dragged us around to Massachusetts, and New Jersey, and New York, until we came back to Kentucky when my dad took a job at Center College. And what was it about Kentucky? So even as a kid, you're saying there's something about Kentucky that kept pulling you in? Well, I mean, the first thing I'd say is family, that we have a pretty big extended family, though a fair number of them have passed. My grandmother, Louise, who grew up in Essel County, but was living in Lexington, was sort of a hub around which a fair bit of action happened. You know, she was a real political person and spent a lot of time thinking about change, was really, spent a lot of time reading the papers, and I think being disgruntled at our local elected officials, and often the state legislature and the governor. And I had hundreds of conversations with her about the mountains and the coal fields and the state and her wishes for it to be easier for people to get along. And she had a lot to say in a sort of understated way, but she had strong opinions. So would your mom and you, would you say there, is there more political corruption in central Appalachia than other places, or does it just look different? You're just going to start with the big guns. I am. I'm not going to ease into it at all. Well, it's just such an interesting opening. I couldn't resist. Yeah. Well, I will say a couple of things. I mean, the first, you know, what I have is my experience and that's it. I'm not an expert on that topic. Yeah. I would say, you know, I think all places struggle to some degree with folks trying to use the political system to enrich themselves and the people around them. So it's not unique to Appalachia. I think to some degree, you know, Appalachia benefited from and suffered from the reliance on a few small economic, well, a few specific economic engines, the coal industry and public employment. And those two factors, I think when you don't have a ton of economic diversity and you have really powerful economic engines, it lends itself to local politicians feeling particularly accountable in service of those dominant economic industries. So I think it's true in small farming towns that have a big John Deere plant or other dominant factors. But I also think, you know, the coal industry has had a history of purposefully trying to do what they can to influence local elected's view on the economy and who got to benefit and why. And while obviously the industry is incredibly important and a lot of people see it as the way they put food on the table and sent their kids to school. And, you know, in some ways it is and has been a form of pride, a way that people have served their communities. And at the same time, it's hard to ignore the challenges and environmental damage and the boom and the bust economic reality. So that's a long way of saying, I think economies that are captured by fewer economic options generally are more challenging politically. Yeah. That's a really interesting point. And that's why I went there because I just think you're on to some really good insights. And, you know, like most industries pay for lobbyists to influence politics, processes to try to benefit their industry. But you know, in a diversified area, you have multiple industries sort of competing for political market share, so to speak. If you only have one or two viable industries in a place, then I guess it makes sense that they would really get an outside share of the power. A big fish in a small pond. And there is a lot of research around on this point around the world, right? That natural resource economies that are focused on extraction that don't have a lot of value adding to them generally suffer from a broader range of challenges, including political corruption. And there are books and books on this. In fact, I used to have one and I think it's in a box in my basement. But so, yeah, it is a I mean, I've often thought of one of the trajectories we're trying to move in the mountains is economic diversification, right? Just creating more and broader economic opportunities that allow folks to stay home for all sorts of reasons. Some of them economic, of course, a lot more job opportunities and income opportunities, you know, higher tax base for our schools and hospitals. But also, I think, to diversify our politics and and, you know, to make it easier for a broader range of perspectives about what our economy should be to be dominant. So you're having these provocative conversations, sounds like over newspapers or around the kitchen table at home. And what were some other formative experiences for you that eventually lead you to lead this organization? A lot of us know it as Mesa traditionally, it's now made out of the association. It's a regional leader for decades now in this work of economic development, economic diversification, community development. Let's see. I mean, obviously, my grandmother was definitely informative there. You know, I went away to graduate school in Boston. I studied anthropology with a focus on development. And a lot of the questions and the conversations were about this link between the economy and culture and what people need to live happy and healthy lives. And I often in school would reflect on Appalachia and Kentucky as the place my head would go as, you know, I was learning about East Africa and Southeast Asia and these other places, right? Just because it was the context I knew the best. You know, I remember very clearly when the Toyota plant came into central Kentucky and all the work that Martha Lane Collins did at the time to make industrial recruitment the hallmark of the way Kentucky did its economic development. And I remember thinking like, man, imagine if we spent that much time and energy and money on our local entrepreneurs, our local businesses, like what would it look like instead of investing all of our time and energy trying to fish for companies that could come into the state? What if, you know, the Cabinet for Economic Development set up shop in Appalachia and Kentucky and really tried to do everything they could to find and invest in that sort of local leadership? So that was one. I was in high school class and we talked a lot about that strategy and what would an alternative to that look like. And that stuck with me and informed the way I thought about place-based economic development. And so what were some of the steps? So what got you, that's funny, you're sort of in Kentucky, out in Kentucky, out. So did you come straight back to Kentucky from Boston after grad school? Yeah, I did. I got a job, you know, I sent resumes abroad. I finished a master's in anthropology with the focus on development. And my mom sent me a little clipping from the Lexington Herald later of the job helping start a local citizens organization in Appalachia and Kentucky to promote sustainable development. Economic opportunity and job creation is also environmentally responsible. And I sent him a resume and six months later, I was living in Whitesburg, Kentucky, part of the Letcher County Acting Team, which was one of these local organizations that the Mountain Association for Community Economic Development was helping stand up. And man, I loved it. It was great work. I lived right on the bank of the North, on the fork of the Kentucky River. You know, I was meeting a lot with local people trying to figure out what they saw as the assets and opportunities and what are the resources and the other tools that they needed access to, to, you know, create the sort of lives that they wanted for themselves and their kids. And our focus tended to be on the economy, but, you know, we helped create a walking trail around Fish Pond Lake. We helped create market at the time for local growers and farmers. We did a resource guide. I mean, you know, things you could imagine a local community group would do. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Tangible is right. And when I talk about three P's and I can barely remember, engaging people with a process that allows them to identify their needs and opportunities and create projects, you know, tangible results. And those three P's, it was, it's people and process and projects still undergird today my sense of what good place-based community economic development is. It's so beautifully simple and elegant and yet hard. I mean, I saw you give a presentation once, I think it was at a CAN, Central Appalachian Network function. And I've heard you say this several times. I can't remember exactly how you put it, but basically to pull this off, this being a more just sustainable Central Appalachian economy is going to be really hard. It's going to take a long time and it's going to be really expensive. Is that, did I get that right? Pretty much. I could imagine myself saying that. I don't quite remember it, but it sounds like something I would say. Yeah. It's all those things. And, you know, Central Appalachia isn't isolated from the rest of the country or the rest of the world. Right. Because we imagine we can influence and control the economy within the region in a way that it isn't connected to, you know, the price of coal in Australia or, you know, a federal policy and, you know, it's just not true. Right. Like we've, I mean, you know, the markets that drove the coal industry aren't about Central Appalachia. Right. It's all over the place. And, you know, that boom and bust reality was real hard on folks in addition to actually creating a lot of jobs until it didn't. And I think, you know, in my mind, there's room between the way we support local economies and what's possible. Right. And that's, that's what I don't want to leave on the table. Right. It's like, what would it look like for a state to do more to invest in local entrepreneurship, to do more to invest in assets in a place that could be a bigger part of the economy and protect and improve the quality of life that people experience, ag land or the natural beauty or other assets? You know, Secretary Vilsack, who I've had a chance to get to know pretty well, talks a lot about the competitive advantage of rural places are our natural resources. Yet we don't spend enough time, energy and effort thinking about them as assets, both economically and as things important to protect. So I, it's not that I don't think we should be thinking about the connections to the rest of the economy. I think we do and should be. But I think, I think we got to think about how states and the federal government can do a better job supporting regions and driving investments and resources into those regions to help them build a stronger platform from which they can be connected to and integrated to the rest of the economy. And I just think we don't think enough about regions. We don't think enough about economic sector, food or energy or forestry, outdoor recreation based on the assets. Imagine if we had federal rural development policy that was organized regionally and that the programs and the resources available to a region from the federal government were really based on a deep understanding of the priorities, the needs and the barriers and in those given places. And that's just not what we have, right? We've got 400 programs that are all siloed, you know, pretty inflexible and aren't easy for communities and regions to make, respond to the particular opportunities and challenges in a place. And I would love to see that much further in the place-based world, place-based world development policy. The last thing I'll say, and then I'll shut up, is the other thing we do, I think, is under recognize the importance of, I think, the government, right? Like the investments and the foundations of a strong economy, education and roads and healthcare, like those are such critical parts of the economy in the region, like directly. But those, and the federal and state government investments also then allow other economic activity to happen. So I think we got to think about public services and those public investments as part of the economic development strategy in places. And only a little bit, like there was a effort in the '90s and early 2000s in Eastern Kentucky to really think about healthcare as an economic development strategy and what could we do to make sure that local people had a shot at the jobs associated with it, most of which were funded through the federal government. So I think place-based development and really thinking about public services and the role of the government investing in those are part of the economic development conversation that need as much attention as we can give them. And those are- Sorry, that was a ramble. That was great. Now, those are two pretty big reframes, right? I mean, most of our, you were saying we should have place-based policies that take into account the unique dynamics of the unique regions that make up this country. And yet many of those 400 programs we have right now that you mentioned, the design is the same, whether you're a project in Fresno, California, Portland, Maine, or Tallahassee, Florida, exact same program, same parameters, same rules. Charleston, West Virginia. Yeah, no, that is exactly right. And the range of aspects and challenges and opportunities and capacity in those places are incredibly different. I mean, we don't really have federal rural development policy. We've got federal rural development programs. Like I was the deputy undersecretary at rural development at USDA. And I sat in a seat that was over all of these federal programs and worked hard to try to figure out like, how do we identify a set of priorities? And in fact, the secretary tried to drive, and I think is still trying to drive a set of priorities that program and investments and capacities are organized to support, right? So that could be about broadband. That could be about local entrepreneurship. That could be about small holder ag production, right? That could be about distributed energy production or manufacturing necessary to support electrification. Like Ireland, of all the places, now it's much smaller, has one of the best rural development policies I've ever seen, right? A set of priorities. Happy St. Patrick's Day, by the way. Yeah, that's right. Happy St. Patrick's Day. Thank you. I had to testify once on the Hill, and I shared the story of their federal rural development policy because it's so thoughtful. And it just flows from a set of goals and priorities about what the Irish government wants to see happen in rural communities. And one could imagine us re-envisioning what a federal moonshot to support rural communities across this country could look like, and should start with a set of goals and priorities from which our policies, our programs, and our investments flow. But we aren't there at the moment. Speaking of the region, I think you were involved in the fairly early days with the Central Appalachian Network, or CAN for short. Could you tell folks what that is and how it created value for you as a leader, or what was MESA, now Mountain Association, as an organization, and for this region more generally? Yeah, I'll say I went to my first CAN meeting in 1996, which is a long dang time ago. CAN has had a couple of iterations, right? Like the first time I was involved with CAN, I think it, I mean, it was a set of community economic development organizations in Central Appalachia that shared the belief that we could do more to build an economy in the region by lifting up entrepreneurs and economic opportunities and partnering together to capture resources, to understand actually what's working or not, right? It's always had a learning element in it. And then drive programs and investments into opportunities that had positive economic results and were good for communities. So I think local agriculture is one that's gotten a fair bit of attention over the years. And forestry, timber products, and sustainable harvest practices has gotten a lot of attention and distributed energy production, solar and wind. So I loved CAN because it was a network of people that were struggling with the same questions that I was struggling with, right? Trying to figure out what makes a difference in communities that people can see in their lives, but also is part of protecting what they love about the places they're from. And that shared struggle, sometimes it felt like it was going to the therapist, right? Because you... Group therapy. I mean, yeah, yeah. Group therapy. Yeah. You just got to work with people who also cared about the same things you cared about and were trying to figure it out in a way that made a difference. So you've done this work. It's hard work. It's long-term work. You've done this from a private practitioner, sort of nonprofit perspective. You've been on the funder side, philanthropic. Now had a stint on the public side. How similar are those different angles? How different are they? And how do we make these different... I don't know what the word is. I don't know if they're sectors or different angles of change-making. How do we make them leverage each other to be more effective? I sure don't have any magic answers. I will say relationships matter a lot. And I think you are an expert at trying to humanize the opportunities and the challenges that Appalachia experiences and make sure people understand them in a way that is visceral. It's not just abstract. I think trying to build relationships between those efforts is important. I think part of the way to do that is time on the ground. I think bringing folks in the government and bringing philanthropy to Appalachia so they get a sense of the assets, right? Because there are a lot of positives in the region and the very real challenges. I think that's important. I think we gotta continue to do the work to build an engaged and an informed set of residents who get exposure to these issues, exposure and better understanding about the way the government operates and the role they can play in influencing their communities and how state and federal investment is used. I believe in organizing, right? I believe in civic engagement opportunities. And we as a development practitioners need to do everything we can to support, I think, residents and citizens and understanding that they can play a role in making their places more like they want them to be. And that can be from joining a civic group. That can be from volunteering to making sure they vote and that they really understand the possible implications and the policies of the people that are running for office. And it's hard, right? Because we've got such a culture war at the moment that is less about the policies and it's more about a set of beliefs that people hold about our culture and who deserves to be their vision of their lives, be the dominant one. And I just think that there's something really to making sure we do this work in a way that everyday people see the benefits of this sort of focus of growing a local economy so that they can participate in helping get elected officials into office who care about everybody, who care about the commons and the public good. And that is a hard, slow, and expensive effort. People process projects. Exactly. Yeah. And organizing. And organizing. I'm almost shy to ask this question, given the amount of work that you've done in these spaces. But what are some changes in Appalachia that you have seen that give you hope? And then what are some things that have not changed quickly enough that you still hope to see more movement on? Well, gosh, I think there's so many young people that are choosing to stay in the region who are starting local small businesses, are choosing to lift up the elements of their culture and place that they care about. And I think some of that has always been so. But it feels like to me, the last 10 years in particular, there's really been a movement of younger people who are choosing to stay. Not just the creative class, but there's definitely part of that around food and arts and music and businesses that support that sort of tourism. And I really value it. Those investments are, I think, both economic investments, but they're people from a place declaring how important that place is to them. And I think showing up that way sends a signal to others that there's a lot good happening in Southwest Virginia and Eastern Kentucky and in Southwest Virginia. And so I think that's a real positive. I think there's a lot of collaboration going on. I think of the Build Back Better Regional Challenge that Coalfield and a group of other organizations in West Virginia were able to put together. I've forgotten how much it is. 62.8 million. 62.8 million, right? That is an impressive... Still can't believe it. Yeah, I mean, it's actually the... I mean, it's an important amount of money, but what's even more impressive to me is the collaboration it took and it takes to implement a strategy behind what y'all are thinking about doing. And again, it's like, I think there have been other times in which there have been complicated collaboration that has resulted in federal resources, but this is at a different scale, right? There's a federal investment at IIJA, ARPA, IRA, and CHIPS, the big... The federal policies that have resulted in that sort of investment, right? It's just a momentous time, sort of unprecedented that this scale of resources is available. And when Appalachia collaborates, I think great things are possible. How it doesn't hurt that Sid Intermachin is a very powerful politician and his influence is significant. And I just think that collaboration is extremely important. And I still think there are too many people unhoused. There are too many people looking for work, right? There's not enough investment in the infrastructure in the region, whether it's roads and bridges. And so while I think there have been positive changes, too many people still see themselves as throwaway people and throwaway places. And they don't deserve to have that be part of their reality. And I think the federal government can continue to, and I think the state governments can continue to invest in what in my mind is the most important part of the infrastructure of the region, which are the local organizations. I've gotten even more practical the older I get. And it's like, my question is like, who are the agents of economic change, right? Who are the people? And are we investing in them at the scale and at the depth necessary for them to be able to be the level of change that they need to be? And one thing I can say from my time in rural development is they do not invest in a capacity. And it's a $42 billion a year. That's what rural development invests a year in the US rural communities. And almost none of that is he invested in building the quality and caliber of our local partners to take and use that investment well, just from a risk standpoint, investing in the local organizations and local governments that are the borrowers and investees of that money, not to mention the improved outcomes in those communities. So I'm a big believer in investments in capacity building that grow local organizations and local governments to be better partners to the state and federal government to allow them to be better listeners to a broad swath of their communities and be better at imagining what's possible is the single most important thing I think the federal government can do to improve the plight and the possibilities in rural communities. And I'm hearing you're not still not doing nearly enough. I mean, there's some historic investments, one time investments that should be honored, celebrated. Yeah, yeah. Much more holistic Ireland style strategy committed to rural capacity. Yeah. When I was an appointee, when we were working on the Build Back Better legislation, which was the second package after the American Rescue Plan, which became part of IIJA and IRA, we did a lot of design work on what was called the Rural Partnership Program, which aimed to be a $5 billion annual investment in the capacity of local organizations and local governments to be more effective at local and regional development. Unfortunately, that package didn't pass and then it got stripped out of IRA. And I literally think just from the rural development perspective alone, they're the 11th largest bank in the country, just from an asset size, about $250 billion of assets. And they operate with a third of the staff, sorry, a third less staff than they had 10 years ago, where their assets have doubled. And we're doing nothing to improve the quality of their borrowers. Again, much less the sort of the investments and the projects and what's possible in those communities, which is even more important to my mind. But so yeah, I think there have been important investments in capacity, but it isn't a strategy, it's a set of programs. And what we need is a strategy that says, what's the scale of resources? How should we deliver it to improve outcomes? What do we want to learn about it and measure so we can do it with accountability? And there's been a lot of thinking about it. It's a question of political will, but what isn't, Brandon? Honestly, it's like, I really think this, how do we get the political will necessary to do the things that are hard, slow and expensive feels more important to me than anything else. And it's still all, as you said, Appalachia is not disconnected. We're not this isolated alien of a place. And so with the Act Now Coalition, the money is really exciting, but you're exactly right. The collaboration is even more exciting. And I'm even more excited about what we collaborated around, which is climate resilience, climate technology with an equity lens. And so I think a lot of times big issues of our time, like climate change, like racism, people look at Appalachia and think, well, that's like from another era, what could Appalachia possibly have to say about these global issues? And actually we have a lot to say and we shouldn't overlook it. And there's assets, there's challenges and problems, but there's assets that if we could leverage them as assets in these bigger global issues, it's such a more empowering frame, rather than just always treating us as a problem. Yeah, no, I think it's exactly right. I mean, I would in fact say that climate in particular part of the challenge has been, we've not thought about it first and foremost as a way to drive job creation and opportunity in local communities. And it matters that we also have an impact at the national and the global level. But in my mind, the way we're going to do that through, I think, communities and economic opportunities and the role of utilities. And it's so much easier to look through the rear view mirror than it is the wind field. And there's been so much change going on around energy issues and climate. I think utilities have been slow to catch up because they aren't being pushed as hard as they probably need to be. But it's a complicated issue. But I think again, doing it from the bottom up is the way we build political will and see the opportunities in the huge transition that's coming. It's coming, right? It has been coming, right? The role of natural gas in the region far outstrips any impact that renewables had on the decline of coal jobs, right? And yet again, we're continuing to struggle through what these big changes mean for Appalachia. And I just think we've got to do it from the standpoint of how do we drive as much opportunity and benefit in the region. Justin, thank you for your time. Thank you for your leadership. Thank you for your commitment to rural development that's just and sustainable and equitable. And I've learned even more from you just in this conversation. And I do every time and I look forward to the next one. Yeah, it's a pleasure. I am so appreciative of your investment of your time in this podcast. I just think there are a lot of people out there that have been falling forward in trying to do this work. And I think it's important to try to shine a light on what folks have experienced and what they're learning. So thank you for doing that and for your great work at Coalfield and at Act Now. Thank you. Thank you. And see you next time. Change in the Coalfields is a podcast created by Coalfield Development in the hills and hollers of West Virginia. This episode was hosted by Brandon Dennison and produced and edited by JJN Multimedia. Become a part of our mission to rebuild the Appalachian economy by going to our website coalfield-development.org to make a donation. You can email us anytime at info@coalfield-development.org and subscribe to our newsletter for more information on the podcast. You can follow us on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, and LinkedIn by searching Coalfield Development. Check back soon for more episodes.[Music][Music][BLANK_AUDIO]