Change in the Coalfields: A Podcast by Coalfield Development
Change in the Coalfields: A Podcast by Coalfield Development
Kathlyn Terry Baker
Original intro/outro music:
"'Till I See Stars" by The Parachute Brigade
The sun does not always shine in West Virginia but the people always do. I'm delighted to me.
Brandon Dennison:These are historic times in Appalachia. A lot has changed. A lot is changing now and a lot still needs to change. In our podcasts we talk with change makers right square in the middle of all of this working to ensure the changes for the good. You're listening to Change in the Coalfields podcast by Coalfield Development. I'm your host, Brandon Dennison. Welcome to Change in the Coalfields. My name is Brandon Dennison, I'm your host, really excited this week to have Kathlyn Terry Baker, who's the CEO of Appalachian Sustainable Development based in southwest Virginia, and serving the central Appalachian region. And if you're not from the area, just to clarify, southwest Virginia is a part of Virginia, which is different from West Virginia, which is its whole own state. And sometimes that all gets mixed up. But Kathlyn thanks so much for coming on the podcast.
Kathlyn Terry Baker:Thank you. I'm looking forward to it.
Brandon Dennison:So we'll start where we are now. And then we'll sort of go back to the beginning. Tell us about ASD, Appalachian Sustainable Development, your mission and what you're working on for 2023.
Kathlyn Terry Baker:So our Appalachian Sustainable Development, or ASD was founded in 1995. And I like to characterize why it was founded is to address the whole jobs versus the environment conundrum, like our founders felt that you didn't have to choose one over the other, that you can actually get both improve the environment while you're making a good livelihood. And over the years, that's really consisted mostly of working in the food ag sector, because from early days, we were a natural asset based, focused nonprofit. Where we are now gosh, it's kind of hard to believe I've been there since I was six. So it's been a minute. But and even the mind that I've seen, it's we've just added so many programs, and there's so much you can do with agriculture. And in our region. It's obviously part of our history. And I feel like part will be part of our future. For 2023, I think, gosh, there's so much going on. And one of the things that's most top of mind is we recently were able to buy a piece of property that will be ASD'snew home, which will also house what we're calling an agricultural campus. Super excited about that, we'll finally have headquarters again. And we'll have demonstration sites for regenerative ag practices, agroforestry. There'll be greenhouses, in ground raised bed production. Another drop-off facility for our food hub that's actually in further southwest, Virginia. Thanks for clarifying that. So so that's, you know, really big exciting things that we have going on some of the other program expansions. As you know, we have a food hub that we've operated since 2000, called Appalachian Harvest. And for the most part, it's been focused on selling whole produce and some value added products like jarred sauces and that type of thing. And recently, we added beef to our offerings. And it has been so exciting to see the interest from producers, because most of the ag production in our immediate vicinity is beef cattle. And it is mostly been going to the midwest to feedlots. And everyone is excited, I should say everyone, many people are very excited about being able to keep their products close to home and get a better price for it. So we're planning to significantly expand that program in 2023. So super excited about that. Definitely increasing our focus on regenerative agriculture. And hopefully, we can help some of the farmers in our region adopt those practices. We're part of a national project to implement more silvopasture which is having livestock could be cattle could be goats, ducks, geese, whatever, who that are in the trees. So there's it's trees that are incorporated into pastures. So that's just a few of the things there's a ton of things we're doing in 2023 but probably don't need me going on much longer on that.
Brandon Dennison:I do just want to say how you run a wonderful organization and you do a great job at it and it's just it's cool every time we connect. I hear about some you know, a new initiative a new win and more farmers served. So I just really want to commend you and your organization and say thanks for everything you do for this region.
Kathlyn Terry Baker:Well, that's really high praise coming from you who are the poster, you're the poster child for doing something new every time I talk to you, and big and huge and exciting. So thank you.
Brandon Dennison:So say a little bit more just for the listeners. When you say regenerative AG, could you say a little bit more about what that means?
Kathlyn Terry Baker:So everybody's heard of organic. And I think about regenerative AG is the next step. Because organic in my mind was supposed to feed the soil and, and to be good for the planet. And regenerative AG is just more deliberate, not just maintaining the status quo, it's recognizing that we have to do more than that, that we need to be. In our case, I think a lot of it will be feeding the soil, which is an organic practice. But there isn't any price premium yet for regenerative ag or practices that are actually really good for the planet, like silvopasture is a really good example. We, over the course of the next five years, through the support of a USDA climate smart commodities grant, we're going to be working with this large group across the country to build a brand for silvopasture. So if you have, for instance, you've gone to the effort and expense of implementing silvopasture on your farm, we want you to get a premium, so that you are benefiting from that. And in order to get a price premium, customers have to even though I say silvopasture, in ag circles, and people don't know what I'm saying, I didn't know what I was saying before. So like, you know, we're we're really, we got to get the practices out there. But we've also got to connect it to the financial assistance for the people who are going to that effort. So there's a lot of different practices under regenerative AG. And I would say in this coming year, our biggest focuses will be on silvopasture and no-till production, and really just conscious efforts to feed the soil. We're hoping to pick up the composting operation that the city of Bristol, Virginia/Tennessee had to drop recently, so that we can kind of help be a part of that as well. So there's just so much to learn that we actually are hoping to hire somebody to focus specifically on regenerative ag practices, so that we can bring that the most current but vetted practices to our producers in our region.
Brandon Dennison:That's gotta have huge like climate change implications, right to manage the soil better.
Kathlyn Terry Baker:The regenerative ag practices and agroforestry. And some of the things that we were doing any way are actually connected to some of the top greenhouse gas emission, and strategies. One of the things that I love about that book is it tells it gives you a return on investment for these different strategies. And it really agroforestry in particular has some just huge implications for that. So just what we've done is create a concept paper to help us focus our our energies on where do we need to focus because there's so many opportunities that we needed to just pick a few to start with this year.
Brandon Dennison:You mentioned ag agriculture's importance to Appalachia. And that might surprise some folks. I mean, I think the average American when they think agriculture, they probably think Midwest, right? They're not thinking Appalachia, but it's a key pillar of the economic and even the social history of the region. Could you say a little bit more about why agriculture is so important to our history and why you think it's still important to our future to?
Kathlyn Terry Baker:Well, I mean, historically, we fed ourselves we were actually able to be self-sufficient. And I think the difference between something like a Midwest is scale. We don't, we're not producing commodity, the commodity crops that are actually supported by subsidies and support substantial support from the USDA. It's always because I was new to agriculture in oh '06. And I was like, man, how come? We're really not supporting the food we eat? It makes no sense if you the more you dig into the food system, the less sense it makes. But I will say that, you know, I had the opportunity to go to Ukraine a few years ago, and it was really an interesting conference because it was the Carpathian and Appalachians and how similar they are. And the thing that struck me was that every single family had a garden and fed themselves. And if they had to pick between gardening and going to work, they picked gardening, but they've read an article recently where someone had preserved the, there all these people preserving all these, preserving their food and taking care of themselves. And the thing that the folks from Ukraine said to us when we were there is, y'all lost it, we haven't yet. We stopped producing our own food. But what we've seen through the pandemic, is now we're getting that we've lost it. And so I think a lot of the differences between the Midwest and here is just that it has been more community based, smaller scale. And, and I think, as we have, like, get bigger, get out agriculture, that kind of left Appalachia, behind a bit. But during the pandemic, we really saw that people are getting it. I mean, if you're not in the food Nexus and you don't pay attention, sure, how did this food? You don't think about it? Why would you, you know, in and put now I think people are, are understanding after, after all the broken supply chains, what the opportunity is that we lost, but that we can still get back. And just with climate change, we have water. Yeah, you know, in maybe sometimes, recently, way too much. But we do have a lot of resources here, that if we're intentional about how we, how we utilize them, the only thing keeping that barn standing is that the termites are holding hands. And so like, that's what our food system is in Appalachia, we need to hold hands, and we need to work together, because we're small, because we're not going to be a 1,000 acre, 10,000 acre farm.
Brandon Dennison:So what's your Appalachian story? Kathlyn, I am actually, I'm so excited to ask this because I don't I don't know after all the time we've worked together. I don't know. Where you did you grew up in the region? Did you move into the region? Where did you grow up?
Kathlyn Terry Baker:I grew up mostly in Texas, with a couple of years stint in London, England when I was little. So I sounded like I was from the UK for a couple of years. As an American when I got to the UK and then like I was a pariah on both coasts, but I actually moved here from San Diego. So I think it was just a midlife crisis. I got up one day and I was like, I want to know I'm going to work because I was in private industry for all of my career before moving here. And I actually moved here because my parents had left Texas and drove around the country and we're like we don't want to go back there. We want to we want someplace else to retire and they ended up in Kingsport, Tennessee. So when I had my midlife crisis, that's where I went. And amusingly I was like I'm not taking the job until it's something that speaks to me and is important. Ah, the joys of rural internet.
Brandon Dennison:Rural internet. Yep, it's real.
Kathlyn Terry Baker:They actually just ran fiber down my road. This close to becoming like relevant.
Brandon Dennison:You're going to enter 2023 - full bore. Well, we'll keep trying. And then if it cuts out again, we can just call in so so so you had a midlife crisis. Your parents were in Kingsport I do before we jump to Kingsport, um, I am curious, just a little bit like what was it like growing up? And do you ever miss Texas? Did you feel that you have a good childhood in Texas?
Kathlyn Terry Baker:Oh, yeah, I had a great childhood. I think so I was talking to someone the other day, I lived outside of just on the outskirts of Houston for most of the time. And we agreed that the thing we missed the most was the food. And that is pretty much you know, and some of the friends that I had. I mean, I enjoyed Texas, you know, we my parents bought a piece of property outside of Texas and we spent, outside of Houston, and we spent a lot of time there.
Brandon Dennison:Did you have a favorite goat with a name? Or was it just sort of our herd?
Kathlyn Terry Baker:Well it was probably a little off color. But there were five of them and the baby was named Edie short for Oedipus.
Brandon Dennison:Do you feel pretty rooted in in Appalachia now like you've got your own plot of land and that's home?
Kathlyn Terry Baker:Yeah, definitely is. You know, I think that probably the thing that struck me the most when when I first got here, I my mother and I would just drive around all over everywhere. Just looking at how beautiful this place is. And it it struck me that I just, we couldn't quite understand how no one knows about this place. When it's just, it's such an amazing and beautiful place where, you know, in any other part of this country, some of the view you see would be all tourist traps, you know? And it's just like, oh, yeah, it's just that, you know, it's just outside of the field, which is a population of 81. And no one even knows. This is there. And it's just so I'm thrilled that outdoor rec and tourism is becoming such a big thing in Appalachia. And absolutely. I can't imagine being anywhere else.
Brandon Dennison:I know a lot of folks who come from the west to they're struck by how green it is, you know, how lush and green? It is some of the beautiful the wilderness on the East Coast is compared to the West Coast, right?
Kathlyn Terry Baker:Yes, I agree. Man, I grew up a part of the Texas that is not you know, West Texas. So I was used to green and, uh, but I was not used to mountains, and hills and what we have here.
Brandon Dennison:You mentioned some time in private industry. You sounded like maybe it wasn't the most rewarding aspect of your career, but I'm sure you developed some skills that that carried forward.
Kathlyn Terry Baker:Yeah, a lot of what I did, probably for the past 10 years in private industry was product operations management. And just that, being able to put a project together and manage diverse teams, I think has really it's a it's a useful skill for, for a lot of industries, and a lot of sectors and has been helpful to me in in this role for
Brandon Dennison:ASD employs a lot of social enterprise strategy too, right, so you've got grants, but you've also got earned revenue streams.
Kathlyn Terry Baker:We do. I think probably the, every, you know, on the hard days, I'm like, Oh, my gosh, I miss business, it was so simple. Because the keeping a foot in the mission and a foot in, in your business is hard. And there are obviously private, there's three partners that do that as well and do it very well. But it's, it takes a lot of thoughts. But I think, you know, opposite. Those bad days are the great days when you're like, Wow, man, we just get, we get to try and figure it out. You know, and if stuff doesn't work, we try something else. And that's a that's a wonderful thing to be able to do. When you're in this type of work.
Brandon Dennison:You started out now this I remember you started out on like the leadership team, but not as the CEO right at ASD.
Kathlyn Terry Baker:That's correct. I was they they had to, ASD had two enterprises when I was hired, social enterprises. And I was hired to manage them both. And our founder, Anthony Flaccovento decided to, to leave in about 2009 timeframe. So I had been here around three years at that time. And we ended up going through about a year, long process and hired somebody else to replace him. And then when she she ended up turning into just like the kind of a transitional Executive Director. Sure, it wasn't intentional, but it kind of worked out that way.
Brandon Dennison:How, I mean, that had to be tough that transition, but also like a lot of organization. But you did. I mean, a lot of some organizations don't survive that transition from the founder, any insights on how to pull that off?
Kathlyn Terry Baker:So we worked with Thomas Watson's from Rural Support Partners. And I got I got to say, without Thomas, I don't know what we would have done. I think most I shouldn't say most but like some of the papers that he shared with me, it's not uncommon for after several years for it to almost be upside down where it's almost like the board's reporting to the founder versus vice versa. And so there was a lot of time spent with Thomas working through what is not just an executive transition, but the board composition and transition. What does that look like? And you know yourself from when the more complicated your your organization gets more difficult it is for the board to be in charge. I mean, you got to create the space for that and that's no small task. And so we did a lot of that work. A lot of preparation, I would say that the handoff was pretty challenging. Sure, but I think that there was enough commitment from the board and that that we made it work, I do think it helps to have someone in place as a number two like me to actually be able to help with some of that. So I mean, one of the things that we're talking about because I'm, I turned 60 last year, and at some point, I gotta think about my transition. So we've been kind of talking that looks like going forward so that it can be smooth handoff for for the next next generation.
Brandon Dennison:It's almost like never too soon to be thinking about succession, is it?
Kathlyn Terry Baker:No, we're actually trying to put in succession plans for for all of our positions. Because just it's the nature of the world right now. There's a lot of transition is going on with staff in general and to protect the organization, you know, especially at the senior level, you need to have that plan but all throughout the organization. That is very wise.
Brandon Dennison:Jeff, you and I are both we're members of CAN, we've been on leadership committees and working groups with CAN, which is the Central Appalachian Network. And I feel like CAN has been an important resource for several organizations that have gone through executive transitions or big programmatic changes or new program launches. Could you speak to CAN a little bit and, and the value of that network in your in your career.
Kathlyn Terry Baker:So I have found CAN valuable for a whole host of reasons. I know when I first transitioned to become an executive director at ASD, one of the things that I was most reluctant about even taking the job was just the whole grant fundraising nightmare, which is a challenge, as you know, and I just kind of wanted to avoid that, and then could not. And I just remember Lesley Salar, from ACEnet, sharing some of her successful grant proposals with me and just kind of helping me along as a brand new ED trying to kind of find my way. And that was huge. And over the years, there's this we all have different skills. I mean, just our work with Coalfield, you know, starting up a workforce of our brand, would have been almost an insurmountable lift without y'all. And so just having the ability to tap into resources means that we don't have to all be everything, you know, without can and the foundation that that was laid over the years, building up this food system work, that would have taken many more years to get off the ground. So there's just there's been so many different ways that I have found to be beneficial. And some of us have looked at it as being almost like a support group for executive directors and CEOs of nonprofits. Because we need that, you know, the other day when we were in a meeting, I was like, Okay, I'm old. I need to understand what younger people need, and an a leader and in in an organization, because we need to stay relevant, and we need to be what, what next generation workforces need. And so, you know, it's just been, it's been great to be able to just have candid conversations with the folks in can and and it's just a trusted group that, that I know, we can always go to.
Brandon Dennison:Could you say a little bit more about your workforce program I meant to, I meant to hit on that earlier. So our workforce development program is called Groundwork. And much like Coalfield, we work with people who have barriers to employment, to help them get the both hard or technical skills and essential skills that can help them succeed in the workforce. We have multiple different pathways that they can pursue. Just as an example, when we use agriculture as pretty They got full time work in a good sector, so called a win. much what they're focused on, but agriculture, if you've ever been, have you ever worked on a farm or been involved in agriculture at all, you know how many there's an incredible number of skills that you can build. And so we interpret those skills pretty loosely. But for example, one of our early participants was facing a seven year prison term, and we were an alternative sentencing option for him. And it was just so cool to be able to see someone come in and get so excited about all the different things that they could do. They got excited about zero waste programs and LEED certification of buildings and just a whole host of things well now he has his CDL and driving one of our tractor trailers CDL drivers make darn good money. And so to have gone from that, to this, what he needed was help an option. He had the gumption, himself. And we were just the catalyst. And it's just been awesome to see when people succeed like that, and we actually have a young woman who's now getting her CDL and will be also driving for us. So I keep laughing at my staff, because I'm like, you know, this isn't supposed to be a recruiting program for ASD. It's supposed to actually get them out of ASD. But we're happily we're doing both.
Kathlyn Terry Baker:Yep. Exactly.
Brandon Dennison:And it is possible, I think sometimes folks get cynical, you know that someone's made mistakes in their life, and you can't correct them and you can't go back. But the the workforce development space is just incredible. The grit, the gumption, like you said that people have, and with some support and some opportunities, people very much can turn it around. And it just gives a lot of hope.
Kathlyn Terry Baker:It really does. And, you know, what struck me when I was thinking about this the other day is, how, and how unusual it is to be able to go into any sort of company, and be able to explore options. Like, that's not normal in like everyday business. That's just not you're not given leadership opportunities. And I think that's what makes the difference when it's a nonprofit, being able to do this kind of work, and having the ability to pay attention to the individual human, and where they want to go. And I will say one of the things that we're hoping to expand to is, in one of the counties that we're working in, we're planning to hopefully acquire one or 200 acres and use some sort of agrarian trust type model where we can do 99 year leases, for parcels of that land, that we would be able to transition. Those people who are graduating from groundwork, who want to farm into these opportunities. That's that's one of my things I'm most excited about for 2023.
Brandon Dennison:So, Kathlyn, what nourishes you outside of work?
Kathlyn Terry Baker:Oh, it's pretty exciting that like, so I moved here first. And now both my sisters and my brother-in-law are living here. So it's, you know, it's so funny, because I don't think that's that unusual. It's like, once the first person gets here, they're like, no, no, no, you really need, you need to understand that place. And so I, I'm very blessed to spend time with with family and friends. And I'm hoping to actually adopt some hobbies, once we get this house finished, that we've been building for what feels like a decade.
Brandon Dennison:So tell us about the new house.
Kathlyn Terry Baker:We build a barndominium, which is mostly garage for my husband, working on cars, and motorcycles and woodworking and everything else he does, and just fortunate to have some outdoor space for whatever we intend to do next. I'm, I missed having a garden last year, and I'm super excited about actually having one. Again, this year, one of our programs, we work with people to help them learn how to garden, helping get them the materials or supplies, whatever they need to be successful along with the education. We have never had the amount of interest. I mean, like order of magnitude more interest this year, which I'm assuming is related to the high cost of food and the pandemic. But it's been fascinating to see that increase in interest in in gardening and, and feeding ourselves.
Brandon Dennison:So and that alludes to just a lot of positive change in Appalachia. You know, I think it's a hopeful time for the region. We know we have our challenges, but so much good work happening. And it's especially in the ag space, in particular. So you know, you get to be a part of positive change every day. You know, what a blessing What a joy. What are some things in the region that you think have not changed enough? Some changes that you still hope to see, but we haven't we haven't gone far enough yet.
Kathlyn Terry Baker:I feel like we still have a lot of work to do. I think we're getting there. But I think we have a lot of work to do to try and figure out how we do a better job of working together. Like I have seen - during the pandemic, we worked with 25+ food pantry partners to get in just 14 month, 5 million pounds of food to people in need. We couldn't have done that by ourselves, they couldn't have done it. So like we played the intermediary role. And it was so amazing to watch that happen and watch people come together. And it was like, This is what we can do. If we're working together, and we have a common goal is very clear, very simple, common goal. And so we managed to make it work. You know, when I, when I think about food hubs in general, because by and large, they're not profitable. They're are propped up informally by philanthropy or federal grants, which makes my business sold just shrivel. But I feel like there are some opportunities that people are starting to understand, like, when we have been working with a group of farmers in Kentucky, and there was nowhere for them to aggregate product for us to pick it up. Well, they dropped it off at a food bank, so the food bank could get their second, the things that wouldn't make the grade for wholesale markets. At the same time, they're making just a little bit of money, the food bank is. So for us to pay them to distort briefly. Well, that means we didn't have to have a building or human or a truck. It was light and just enviable over the long term. And I feel like that means sometimes it's government, private industry, maybe nonprofit, practice, whatever. It's a whole group of people that have to come together. And I feel like it was getting there. But we have good ways to go. But I think folks are getting it. I also I fear sometimes that some of the really huge scale ag things that might be being implemented are not necessarily going to mean that the money gets down to the community. Right. So I think we need to understand how our community what are compelled our communities really benefit from projects or from the work that we're doing. To make sure that, that it's not we don't create any more extractive industries.
Brandon Dennison:You said earlier, and this is my last question, you said, the more you learn about the food system, the less and less sense that it makes, is this, an example of what you're getting out of sort of the big commodity stuff is what gets subsidized in the community stuff has to struggle along.
Kathlyn Terry Baker:Yes, that's that's a lot of it. But it's also just like, one of the things that has struck me and I'm not like, definitely not like, everything's got to be subsidized. But I think owning the fact that we are informally subsidizing something means that we're doing it in a really inefficient and poor manner, versus just looking at what it's taking to feed rural communities, which is where our food comes from. And then, oh, how stupid is it that our food then leaves from the rural community, so we have food deserts in the very places where people are growing the food? So it's just, it's broken. And, and I think, often when things are broken, people are trying to help fix it, which is wonderful and admirable. But I think it's at such a scale, that, that it's going to take a little bit more of a top down approach than it has and in a pretty substantial change in how we think that these efforts should be funded, especially community food systems.
Brandon Dennison:Well, Kathlyn, you're doing your part, and you're in doing it extremely well. Coalfield has learned so much from you and ASD by getting to do a lot of work together honored to be on the ken leadership team with you and just appreciate what you and your work is meant for Appalachia. And thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
Kathlyn Terry Baker:Well, thank you for having me. It's great to talk to you as always Brandon
Brandon Dennison:Chang in the Coalfields is a podcast created by Coalfield Development in the hills and hollers of West Virginia. This episode was hosted by Brandon Dennison, and produced and edited by JJN multimedia, become a part of our mission to rebuild the Appalachian economy by going to our website Coalfield-Development.org. To make a donation, you can email us anytime at info at Coalfield-Development.org and subscribe to our newsletter for more information on the podcast. You can follow us on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook and LinkedIn by searching Coalfield Development. Check back soon for more episodes.