Thomas Watson

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"'Till I See Stars" by The Parachute Brigade

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John F. Kennedy: 0:00

The sun does not always shine in West Virginia but the people always do and I'm delighted to be here.

Brandon Dennison: 0:10

These are historic times in Appalachia, a lot has changed. A lot is changing now and a lot still needs to change. In our podcasts we talked with change makers right square in the middle of all this working to ensure the change is for the good. You're listening to Change in the Coalfields, a podcast by Coalfield Development. I'm your host, Brandon Dennison. This is Change in the Coalfields, a podcast by Coalfield Development. I'm your host, Brandon Dennison. I also serve as the CEO of Coalfield Development. And this week's really cool. We have a friend and a colleague named Thomas Watson. Thomas is with a group called Rural Support Partners who I have interacted with in a variety of forms and functions throughout Central Appalachia, over the years. So we're gonna dive into that. And Thomas, are you also the founder of Rural Support Partners?

Thomas Watson: 1:07

I am yeah, I am. I am a founder. (We're going on) 13 years now that we've been doing this sort of what I would call a mission focused management consulting firm. And that mission is to help drive the new economy of central Appalachia, just as Coalfield Development, just doing it from a capacity building and infrastructure building sort of standpoint.

Brandon Dennison: 1:28

Good deal. And tell us a little bit while we're on the topic, maybe some examples of the work that RSP has done recently that you're excited about.

Thomas Watson: 1:36

Yeah, well, you know, I see, I see our role as as really helping to strengthen the leaders and the organizations and the networks, who are advancing the new economy. Right. So we most of our work focuses with nonprofits and foundations and state agencies, federal agencies, small town government sort of things, all the folks who are out there and all kinds of different iterations, helping to create the new economy. Our job is to help them become more efficient, more effective, and ultimately more impactful, which helps move our mission forward, right. And so we do everything from strategic planning, to evaluation to executive transitions, to network management, teaching, training, coaching, you know, all the good things you would think that a good management consulting firm would do with those type of organizations. But we focus it almost wholly on groups who are working on community economic development in Central Appalachia. So we try to keep it in that ballpark. And with the long term goal of really helping to strengthen that infrastructure, strengthen and connect that infrastructure of leaders, organizations, networks, we're moving the new economy forward.

Brandon Dennison: 2:47

Leaders, organizations and networks and anybody who's active in community development in Central Appalachia usually knows RSP. So you've, you've done a lot of work with the Appalachian Funders Network, a lot of work with the central Appalachian network, you helped start even a fellowship program, if I remember correctly. Uh, it's, it's honestly, it's inspiring Thomas, the fingerprints of positive change that you've left throughout the region that really adds up to quite an impact. Yeah, thank you. I'm very lucky, you know, very early on. And I'll tell you the story, how we got connected with the CAN and then the Funders Network, and just just how that work started. So, you know, I had, I had this vision of doing the kind of work that we've been doing for a long time, we're, we're brand new. I've started, started RSP. And we'd had some few clients start starting with Appalachian Sustainable Development, actually, our first client was, was the executive transition of Anthony Flaccavento which is really, in my mind, the grandfather of the Sustainable Ag movement here in central Appalachia. That's where we first met ASD that was our first client. And so I knew about CAN, the Central Appalachian Network through ASD and through Anthony and had followed that work and had myself been trying to build networks and part of networks for many years before this. And, and I heard that CAN had a coordinator and I heard that coordinator was leaving. And that coordinator at that time was embedded in Mesa, which is now Mountain Association. And, and so I also knew that CAN was having a little gathering up in southern Ohio, up in Nelsonville- had never been up there before. And it but it was by invitation only. So for two or three weeks before that I called everybody I knew to try to weasel in an invitation to this CAN gathering. Didn't have any money literally went into debt to rent a car to get up there. Didn't get there to two o'clock in the morning, got locked out because you know it was in Nelsonville and at a hotel they didn't have anybody there couldn't get into my room. I didn't get into like three o'clock in the morning. And the next day, it was a great gathering by the way, it was it was really early in CAN's work they were doing a lot of work around food and I knew Justin Maxson at the time slightly, I didn't know him really well, but I knew him enough. And, and again, just trying to position myself. And I got to sit beside him at lunch. And I said, Hey, Justin, I know that CAN is looking for a new coordinator. And boy, we'd love for y'all to consider us for that job. And, and he knew me just enough to say, Well, I have not thought about you. But I bet you'd be good at it. And so he set us up with an interview with the rest of the steering committee. And, and they decided to take a chance on us. And that was a very important time with CAN because it up until that point, it really had been a learning network learning and sharing, but all of a sudden, CAN had gotten a lot of money from the Ford Foundation that they'd gotten a $600,000 to $800,000 grant to do local food value chains. And as a network, they had never worked together at that level to produce collective outcomes and track data and have collective plans. And so that was our first entrance into into CAN, it was our job to really help to create the framework that that really led into a lot of powerful work on the local food side of CAN. And that sparked, you know, a long career now, now almost 12 years as we're stepping out of that role, almost 12 years with being the backbone support of the Central Appalachian Network. So fascinating. During all these years, I've known you I had not heard that story, actually, the journey to Nelsonville, that's quite the entrepreneurial spirit.

Thomas Watson: 6:32

If I had any idea how long of a drive it was, I probably wouldn't have done it actually. It was like an eight hour drive up there from from Asheville, in the middle of the night. So it was quite a trek. But you know, that opened up the window, you know, as the as the Appalachian Funders Network began to get started. You know, that the same time. It was a lot of visionary work between Sandra Mikush at the Babcock Foundation and Mary Hunt up at the Benedum and right after the ARC and at the time, the Ford Foundation had a great program officer and, you know, they had they had this notion that funders should start working together and then and then 2010, they held a meeting over and Abington brought about 30 funders together to really look at what was happening with the economy. You know, we had just completed that major recession, and Appalachia had been declining. Coal had been declining, manufacturing been declining for a long time. And then boy, the bottom just fell out further than anybody thought. So they were really trying to figure out like what was happening with the economy and where, what should funders be doing about it. And, and this is when all of this economic transition work was really taking hold coming out, and just maximum division and, and, and out of KFDC and others in Kentucky. And, and so that that notion really took hold with that meeting in 2010. And they came out of that meeting with a vision of the Appalachian Funders Network, and they created a small steering committee. And then they hired us you know, because we've been working with CAN they liked that kind of stuff. And, and they hired us about 10 hours a week to begin to help envision what that network of funders would look like and how it might work and, and then we played that role for 10 years as well and really helped to build out the structure of that thing and help help them really helped to understand what funders could and couldn't do together over the years. That that that also was an unbelievable opportunity and then try to create synergy between the two. During those years, we've had Sandra Mikush kind of play in one foot in both worlds. And so it was a it was a fascinating time about2010, 2012 or so.

Brandon Dennison: 8:46

So you've you've been a player in positive change throughout this region. I'd love to go back to the beginning. I've heard some great stories from you. You're born and raised in southwest Virginia. You know, tell us where you grew up and what your parents did and where you went.

Thomas Watson: 9:01

Yeah, so I did. Galax is my hometown, still my hometown my heart. I've been in Asheville since the late 90s or so but but Galax is it for me is a great place to grow up. You know my dad had 11 brothers and sisters absolutely the epitome of Appalachian poverty and and growing up in you know, two room shack and no shoes and hungry and just just a tough, tough upbringing for those for those folks. But, but they're also hard workers and they had a good reputation and many of them, especially on my uncle's side became entrepreneurs in the 70s. My dad ran a couple of furniture stores and clothing stores, my uncles - one of my uncles owned the car dealership, the other on the junkyard and one owned the body shop, one on the mobile home shop. So you know I grew up in a set of entrepreneurs and farmers and factory workers right now that was my that was my entrance into life. I started working in the store, you know very early on in my life. It was a, it was an interesting experience. And then, you know, after high school went did exactly what most folks did in high school, I had no vision, barely made it out of high school. So I went to work in the factory, I got a certificate in welding and went right to work as a production welder did that for about a year. So we got laid off, you know, I got laid off my first job when I was 19. And, and it was crushing, you know, I had no, I had no responsibilities, still living at home. But it was soul crushing to feel that feeling of, of not having a job and being let go of a job that I actually liked and paid well, and I literally the next week, I went to work the glass factory with my papa had worked for about 40 years. But I saw the writing on the wall, you know, that, that the manufacturing was leaving us and that was what was happening at the time, Galax had about 35 factories in those days, you know, back in the early 80s, and glass, furniture, textiles and, and but they were one by one, you know, leaving Galax. And I was very fortunate at the time I had a girlfriend who was in community college, and I kept talking about the need to do something else but had no vision, didn't know anybody who's ever gone to college or anything. And she says, Well, why don't why don't you do something else? And I was like, Well, what, what else would that be? Right? So is there another factory I can go to like that will be better than this one. And she she connected me with Wytheville Community College and they took me in. And honestly, I couldn't put a sentence together when I walked through the door of Wytheville Community College. It's one of the most important pieces of infrastructure I think we have in Central Appalachia is that entrance into college throug the community college system. They can take you wherever you are, and help you get out the other side of it. And so that was the first step you know, into into something new and different and focused on management and, and was very fortunate to come out of that. That opportunity, I'll stop after this one, but that opportunity I worked at the Holiday Inn while I was in community college. And when I finished I parlayed that two year degree into a management training program, which was a small hotel management company that moved me to Greensboro and opened up the door. I had a great boss there in Wytheville at the Holiday Inn, I had a great boss, and at the Holiday Inn in Greensboro, and that second boss connected me to Guilford College, which then opened up a whole new world for me. So this notion of bringing young people along is key. I mean, it was, I was lucky I had a girlfriend who was connected to college, I was lucky I had a boss who cared enough to actually help me get on the right direction, even called my mom and encouraged her to let me go to Greensboro because nobody ever left Galax. And, and I had a good boss in Greensboro. So that stuck with me on my life and really tried to open up doors for young people and, and others along the way. So you know...

Brandon Dennison: 13:05

It shows. My mom's was a community college teacher. So I appreciate the shout out to the community colleges.

Thomas Watson: 13:15

I think it's one of the most important pieces that we have. I've often envisioned, boy I would love to be a president of the community college, what power you would have to help, you know, open up doors for folks like me, man, how many folks don't get that experience and that opportunity. It was the life it was, you know, this pivotal moment, I think in everybody's life and that was a, that was a major pivotal moment for me. I've been able to walk through the doors of Wytheville Community College it opened up the rest of the

Brandon Dennison: 13:41

So growing up in Galax, what do you do for world. fun? On the weekends? If you're comfortable sharing.

Thomas Watson: 13:50

Yeah, it's a good idea to ride country roads and drink beers about what you do for fun in Galax. You know, I was lucky my uncles had a bunch of land on the New River and so I spent a lot of time on the New River, spend a lot of time fishing and rafting and camping and enjoying enjoying the river itself. It was, it was a great place to grow up I didn't realize how great you know, at the time, but that was it and then and then at the time you know Galax had a main street in in and I had I had kind of an antique car you know, my family being in the Ford dealership and things we all we all buy cars a lot. So I had always had a nice car and did a lot of cruising man. I love cruising Main Streets.

Brandon Dennison: 14:33

Love it. And you and I have talked a lot, I mean growing up in Appalachia there's there's so much to love and to celebrate. It's an authentic place. It's a unique culture. You know, Saturday nights at the racetrack. Grandmas you can quilt, grandpas garden and hunt and glassblowing and making creating you know But we're talking about change there, there's a lot that also needs to change in Appalachia, too. How have you sort of struck that balance over the course of your life of loving family and friends, you know, exactly as they are, and loving Appalachia as it is, but also wanting to see some things that need to change to change and being willing to speak up and push it where you can.

Thomas Watson: 15:25

It's a good question. You know, from a big picture perspective, and you know this better than anybody? I mean, I think you're the one plugging this gap better than anybody I know. But, you know, when I was growing up, man, that factory emphasized - my mom spent her life working at Hanes, right, she was a sower, she worked really hard. But she had good pay. But more importantly, they have family. I mean, they have a softball team, they had, you know, big summer picnics. I mean, she felt like she was part of something, right, she felt like she was part of a bigger, something, even when I worked in the factory as well, like I was part of the you know, I felt support I felt was part of my family, I had purpose. And even though I didn't have a big vision, I, I felt like I was doing stuff that that was important to, you know, to the world. And as the factories began to leave Galax, and coal and other places. We didn't just lose jobs. You know, what folks loss was purpose, and they lost dignity, I mean, getting laid off at 19, I felt worthless. I couldn't imagine what it feels like getting laid off at 40 or 50, and have three kids at home. And so, you know, what's happened is that the loss of our economy has, has created the loss of vision and purpose and dignity in so many people. And starting in the late 80s, what began to happen there is that something pretty bad began to take its place. And that was drugs, it was first meth. And then it was the opioids. And now it seems like it's back in meth and fentanyl, even even worse stuff. In that, you know, that in itself, is an easy fall back when you when you don't have purpose and, and vision for yourself. It feels a big void, it feels a big gap. And then that begins to erode the family and erode the community. And that's where a lot of communities and a lot of places find themselves these days, especially a young guy like me, now coming out of school. If I was coming out of high school, now, there would be nowhere for me to go. And the easiest place for me to go would be down the route I just described, right, I had a place to go, I didn't have a vision or didn't know what I was gonna do. But I had an automatic place to go. And that doesn't exist in so many places. And so, you know, part of what's happened with me is that I was very privileged to be able to step outside of that, and, and I think it's up to all of us to open up those doors, for others do the same. I mean, all of the work that Coalfield is doing is such a great example of that. You're opening up doors and opportunities for folks, where there is no door, you know, we have no bridge from high school, or from the last layoff to whatever's next, you know, and I think that's some of the most important work that we can do. Because once once you begin to feel that personal power and dignity and have some vision then the world is wide open, but until you feel that, honestly, you're not gonna go very far. When you don't feel worthy, and you don't have vision, then you're going to get stuck pretty quickly. And I think that's all of our work. And I think Coalfield is such a great example that when I was at your, at your celebration recently, and just the graduations and the pathway and the grids that you're creating for folks in some of the most important things, while also creating some jobs and opportunity, you know, at the same time. It's, it's an amazing, amazing work.

Brandon Dennison: 19:01

I appreciate it. So, so you got, you said Guilford College, you went from the community college, Holiday Inn, Guilford College. So, what was the next move after that?

Thomas Watson: 19:14

Yeah well, you know, Guildford opened up a whole world right? I mean, that that was the place where I really had to begin to I think two things were happening at that moment, you know, I was coming alive. I got to Guilford and then Guilford just opened up incredible opportunities to think and then I started volunteering at Big Brothers and Big Sisters. And and I had a brother young brother, biracial kid lived in African American community and you know, he was already in trouble. I was working with more harder kids there and that is what I was really wanting to do that time and and boy just opened up my whole world there you know. And I in Guildord I became a banker, that was my, that was my next move and managed the branch of banking for Wachovia, but I kept this, this volunteer work up. And then they open up opportunities for me to work in the schools and teach in the schools and stuff as a volunteer, you know, they encourage, the bank encourages to do stuff like that. So it was great. And so it was about two years, three years into the banking career, and started looking at my journal, and everything in my journal was about my work with kids. And there was nothing in there about the bank, right. And frankly, the bank was just a sales job, it was a selling credit to people who didn't need credit to start with, and anybody who did any credit, there was nothing I could do for them. And, and so I just had this reckoning that, that the banking wasn't really for me. And what I really wanted to do is pivot and work with kids like this and open up this door so that other people had opportunity, as I had had myself. And so I left the bank and went to work in a wilderness camp where kids would come instead of going to jail, they come and spend a year in the woods, and get a lot of counseling and, and a lot of support and a year's worth of high school. And, and, and what I saw in that camp was that man, these are tough kids in tough situations, who were heading to jail. And once they got to camp, and they had a community that was positive and supportive, and they didn't have to worry about the money coming in, or drugs in their community or peer pressure. And those kids turned around 100%, it was unbelievable, the change that would happen from when they would walk into the door, and six months or six weeks after they were in the program. And so, but the problem was I had to send them home, right? And I'd send them home every six weeks, and they would come back out of whack again, every time I've sent them home, right. And so I began to think about this, this notion of like, man, I was going to be a teacher, right? That was I was going to springboard from that to go back and teach and, and so I saw very clearly that man, these kids needed a good teacher, but what they needed was a better school system. And what they needed was their parents need more money. And what was needed is that drugs need to get out of the community, they needed an after school program. They needed to stop being oppressed by, you know, all of these adults who just looked at them as they were losers, right. And so one of the most fortunate again, you know, people in your life, my partner at the time was the last fellow at the Babcock Foundation. And I got invited to a to a board meeting, they had a dinner, one of the board meetings, I got invited. And I sat down beside Gail Williams, who was the director at that time, never met her before. And I was so fired up about this work. It's really embarrassing to say this now, but I talked her face off that night at that board meeting, and it was all about this stuff. I was like, you know, I just I was just so trying to understand, like, how do you create an environment for these kids to thrive? That was the big question. And she said to me, she said, Well, you know, people do work like that, right? And I said, What do you mean, what kind of work do you mean? And she said, It's called community development and community organizing. And she just did this to shut me up, I'm sure. She walked in her office, and she gave me the book about Highlander (and Myles Horton). And I read it in a week and, and I came back to her and I was like - this is what I want to be doing. How do I learn how to do this. And so, you know, and I ended up in graduate school at Chapel Hill in a master's program in social work with a focus on community development, community organizing, I was lucky I had a couple of professors there who had been in international development, and had been organizers and they led me to literally create a program tailored to fit me. And that got me down the nonprofit path. So and then Sandra and Gail are core mentors to me forever, and really are responsible for so much of my thinking and Highlander as well, I mean, all of this stuff that came in Highlander. I was lucky I met. I met some folks at Highlander when I was in graduate school, Helen Lewis, who really was Myles Horton's right hand woman and for many years, and she got me up to Highlander. I ran some of their summer programs while I was in graduate school, just a transformative experience. So came out of their graduate school really, really as an organizer, and fired up to do the kind of work that we've been doing ever since.

Brandon Dennison: 24:38

Incredible, you know, and of course Babcock was a one of the very early supporters of Coalfield Development, and it's how I met my wife Ashley, so it's amazing. One thing leads to another.

Thomas Watson: 24:49

I remember Ashley well and I remember Sandra Minkush telling me many years ago she said you got to pay attention to this guy Brandon up in Huntington, man he's got some really great stuff. I need to figure out a way to connect with him. And so I remember that very distinctly. I got one more step of this story to kind of bring it all home and, and I'll tell you what it is. So when I finished graduate school, I was pretty much I was very justice oriented sort of fellow at that time, really on fire, like, like a lot of young people should be. And I moved to Minneapolis and my partner at the time, went to graduate school up there and never been out of this house, we'd set the example. And I really became a very interface organizer, I mean, hardcore organizer, right around affordable housing issues. At the time, Minneapolis had a massive affordable housing issue, 300% increase in child homelessness, a real land grab of the city, they going to tear down 900 units of affordable housing, public housing, and they were moving all of the folks in those affordable housing out to the first tier suburbs wouldn't let them use vouchers in the city. And and they were going to turn that into it to the yuppie side of town, right. They're gonna turn it into, you know, the white folks come back. And so myself and an organizing partner of mine, Neva Walker, who went on to be the first African American woman in the House of Representatives for for the state of Minnesota. We were the organizers tuned to some about that. Right. And so, we literally were knocking on doors in public housing, we started the Northside Neighbors for Justice. It was a group of public housing, residents. We were doing meetings in five languages. It was among African American, African Spanish. It was fascinating. We built a big group of African American churches around the Northside Neighborhood for Justice, and we literally fought the city. And we fought the city of affordable housing issues and the demolition of this housing in Minneapolis and, and all of this work accumulated up until one day and we were building a big following, and we were getting good press. And we were building a pretty robust group of folks around the stuff we were trying to stop them from moving people out in the suburbs, we're trying to stop the demolition before you build back housing, because there's nowhere for people to go, we were trying to get policy passed or new money in this kind of stuff. And all this work accumulate up until one day, there was a they were going to, the city was going to demolish four units of housing. And they announced that on a on a Tuesday, and it was gonna happen on a Wednesday. And so we held an emergency meeting the night before, we said, hey, we just got to show up. We had no plans to stop it or anything. We just wanted to bring attention to it and show up the next morning. At 10 o'clock, the next morning, we had about 150 people on that site. Keith Ellison who's now the attorney general of Minnesota, he was he was a partner in all this work. He was he was a DJ, he was a lawyer, but he was a DJ at the local African American radio station at the time. So he would tell everybody to come out. We're like 200 people there by 11am. And all of a sudden, the pastors who had been in the civil rights movement, and who had really done unbelievable work on these issues forever. They got all of us, they just they just spontaneously got us all on a big circle. And they said, Here's what civil disobedience is. And here's what we're going to do. And here's what we need everybody else to do. And they literally held hands around the bulldozer, 12 pastors, and said you will not tear down these houses. And of course, the police came out with the arrest of those pastors. And on the front page of the newspaper the next day there were 12 passers with handcuffs, being pushed into cars on the front page of the Star Tribune the next day. But that day, you know, man, you want to fire up a community, arrest their pastor, right? By noon, one o'clock we had 400 people at the mayor's office downtown, demanding that the mayor stop the biggest development process in the history Minneapolis. Mayor comes out Sharon Belton, and she puts a moratorium on the development, she stops it right. And she turns the Northside Neighors for Justice and she says - What the hell do you want? And the truth is, we didn't know. Right? We had a list of demands. We knew what we wanted to stop. But we didn't have a vision for really what we wanted that community to look like, right? And as we grabbed the power and all the power in the world right at that moment, but we didn't have the leadership. We didn't have the trust. I mean, how we were doing meetings in five languages, right? We didn't have the trust. We didn't have the network in place. And all of that began to crumble. Right? Right after we got the power. Now some good things happen, you know, affordable housing trust fund got in place, more money got happening. People got a chance to come back to the neighborhood affordable housing got over there some good things have we pushed out that the city council member of that neighborhood, some good things happen, but the truth is the infrastructure of leaders and organizations and networks were not in place to actually make that work effective. And I saw at that moment, I was like one, I don't need to be an interface organizer. It's not my style, not who I am. And number two, if somebody had been in those in those 10 public housing units, building tenant councils, building leadership, bringing those tenant councils together to build trust and relationship and a vision for that community, we literally could have sat down as partners and have shaped the holy development of that neighborhood. Because none of that capacity building had been done, none of that leadership development had been done. We're trying to do all of that and fight the city at the same time can't happen, right. And so I left that experience, I came back in North Carolina started the Center for Participatory Change and have one idea. And that was to support these grassroots leaders to build leadership to build organizations and build network. And to have that work, you know, create daily change and create the infrastructure that daily things will happen. But to also have that infrastructure in place when the big opportunities and big challenges come along. So that we can actually grab the power and a seat at the table and be effective at it. So that's the that's the long history. And that's the work ever since I went from CQC to doing that, at the national level to Casey Foundation, I've been doing it RSP ever since. But it's not that simple notion that in order to create change, you have to have infrastructure to do it. And somebody's got to be out building and strengthen and connecting that infrastructure poor to be successful.

Brandon Dennison: 30:55

Thomas, multiple points of that story I

Thomas Watson: 30:56

Yeah it's been a wild ride for sure. And, and, got chills, I teared up a little bit, laughed a little bit It's a you know, I think it's just been the opportunity to, again, riht gift to hear. You're very highly respected in Appalachia. And it's a gift to sort of hear the thought process and those key moments that shaped your thinking. That is fascinating to hear. I appreciate you so much sharing that. people, right places, man, and people really helping to shape that next layer of thinking with me, you know, as your as, as you continue to do with me now. Right? I mean, it's the same same thing continues to happen.

Brandon Dennison: 31:43

So I got two more questions for you. A lot of your work, you've mentioned networks. And, and the importance of networks. I think, in some ways. It's become a buzzword, you know, it's like, it's, a lot of people are like, Yeah, of course, we want to be a network. But I've really learned I mean, it's, it's an easier said than done type of situation. You can have meetings and letterhead that says your network or you can really learn how to be a network that gets good work done. So from your perspective, having been a part of several of them. How do you, how do you be a real network that gets good work done?

Thomas Watson: 32:29

Yeah, it, you know, many, many years ago, here in North Carolina's trying to start some network, same idea, you know, theoretical, I knew we needed to work together. And I knew we need to think together. Now I'll never forget this moment, I'm facilitating a big meeting in western North Carolina, trying to get a bunch of people to build a network and I was up there talking about networks, networks, networks, and, and this woman stands up, it's probably 40-50 people in this room. And this woman stands up and she and this is her exact words. She says, Thomas, I don't want to be part of no damn network, I got too much going on already. I got too many things happening. And I ain't got time for a network. What I want is, I want to know everybody in this room well enough to where when I have a problem. Or if I need help, that I can call you up. And you'll help me, that's what I want. And it really shaped everything about me. I'm like, you know that is it right there. Right? That's the fundamental piece of what makes a network work it is the trusting relationships. So that you can do easy work together, you can do hard work together. And you can stay together for the long term. But more importantly, it's that we know each other well enough, in the network or out of the network, that I can call you up and ask you for help. I feel that way with you, Brandon, because I've been in this network with you now for many years, right? And so if I didn't have that relationship, you wouldn't even answer my call your time, right. But since I know you, I know that if I need you, I can call you. And you're gonna give me the time of day, and you're going to trust me enough to hear what I have to say. And you're going to care enough to actually do what you can to help me and that's the fundamental foundational piece. And if that's not in place, then it just doesn't work. And that's where we see networks fall apart most of the time, is that people come together, you know, they don't know each other. They don't have trust, they don't have a common vision. They don't have you know, the time together. And they try to do the hardest thing in the world, which is work together on very difficult and complicated problems. And so the main lesson, I think, in all of this network stuff, is that you've got to take the time, to build the trust and to build relationships that then allow you to do good work and hard work over a long period of time. And to be able to sit down and talk through your differences, or similarities or whatever it is, you know. That's the key to it all.

Brandon Dennison: 34:59

Well, it's you know, and it's harder than it sounds. I mean, you know, you'd say we got to build those trust and relationships. And in a sense, it is just spending time together. But, you know, it's crowding out the distractions and being fully present for that time and learning how to be honest and direct, but still kind. And it's just easier said than done, isn't it?

Thomas Watson: 35:24

It isn't, you know, I always quote her on this when she says, you know, we build relationships through, you know, having coffee time and hanging out time and things like that. But we build trust by getting things done together, right? I trust you, because I can count on you, and you're accountable to us. And so it is harder than it sounds. And, you know, I was thinking about this and sort of for the four Cs, right, there's kind of four things that happens in a network, and they happen all the time in different ways, and are always coming in and out. But, you know, the simplest thing that happens in the network is just communication, we're better off just talking to each other, and learning from each other and figuring out what's happening. And then, you know, once you start communicating with each other, at least have enough to begin to coordinate some things right, we can begin to think together about stuff about what should happen about our analysis about, you know, you can do this training on this, they'll do it on that one, you know, we can begin to coordinate some efforts, so that we're not duplicating so that we're building on stuff. But then you start moving to collaboration, where we're actually sharing resources, and we actually have to deeply depend on each other to get something done. Well, that's a whole different level, right? Because up until that point, you know, we're still independent actors, we're just kind of coordinating what we're doing. Once you start collaborating, then you really, truly have to depend on each other, to get it done. You know, it won't happen without us. It's not just me anymore, it's an us. And then the collective impact thing is even one step above that. That's, you know, measurable goals. That's, that's really where you have to have some backbone support to, to be able to facilitate the bigger movement of the group, and you're producing serious collaborative outcomes. And so, you know, it takes time to move through those, those four Cs. And they all happen in different phases in different ways in the network all the time. But the more you can move towards a collaborative start, the greater impact that you're going to have, and the harder it is to do it.

Brandon Dennison: 37:36

Well, my final question, is my standard question. I like to ask all the guests. So what are some of the biggest changes you've seen in Appalachia during your time here? And then what are some big changes that you haven't seen yet, but still hope to see?

Thomas Watson: 37:52

Yeah, you know, I think it's a lot of around what we've been talking about today of is collaboration, coordination, working together. You know, when the funders network started in 2010, I actually was blown away that that was fairly small reason, but, but almost none of the funders knew each other. And it just didn't make sense that they didn't know each other, you know, everybody kind of kept their head down, and doing their own work. And so one of the biggest changes I've seen in the time that I've been working in Appalachia, is that we're in alignment with each other. And there is so much work together that's happening. And this notion of working together and collaboration in whatever form that might be, has really taken hold. I mean, there's a collaborative mindset as a collaborative spirit, I think in Appalachia that didn't exist, you know, even 10 years ago, 12 years ago. And there has been organizations like and people like Leslie Schaller. And, and Macid and others who've been in Babcock has been, you know, promoting that notion for 30 years. And I think it's finally paying off, I think we are, I think we are, you know, more and more headed down the same path toward a similar vision of a just and new economy in Central Appalachia. And I think that some of the most exciting stuff from our work is beginning to add up, if not from single parts, but for the collective as a whole in a sea of moving into big waves. And that's critical to our future, as you know. And so we have more collaborative spirit we have less working against, and we have many more people heading down the same same path toward the same vision. That's exciting stuff. You know, the big thing that that has yet to happen is the scale on the economy that we need, right? There's great economic development work that's happening all across the region. We are building these new sectors. I mean, you guys are leading this, this work, you know, I mean, the local food sector, the clean energy sector, the reuse sector, the new manufacturing sector, all of those things have a lot of wind behind them. They're moving in a lots of ways, but we've still got to scale it up. So that the Thomas Watson that's coming out of high school in Carroll County today has a next step, whether they're going to college or not, they have grids somewhere, they have a next step to do something. So they can get themselves together to the point where they can do something else, whatever that might be. Right? We still, our economy is still in our new economy is still in the formative stage, right. And so we've got to continue to work together across the region, and in turn these local and even some regional economic development efforts into full scale sectors that offer enough jobs and opportunities for folks so that our region moves forward. Without a job, you don't have a vision, you know, without a vision, you don't have dignity, you don't have purpose. We're going to continue to stall. So it's gonna take networks, it's gonna take collaboration in order to do that. I see it. And it's hard work. And it's it's gonna take time.

Brandon Dennison: 41:04

That reminds me Max and always sort of given a reality check of this is can be hard, expensive, time consuming. It's possible, but let's not diminish what we're up against.

Thomas Watson: 41:15

I miss him so much. And he is so right.

Brandon Dennison: 41:20

Thomas, man, thank you for sharing your stories, your wisdom. Anybody who's a part of a network, I'm going to encourage to listen to this episode. Thanks for everything you've done for me, for Coalfield, for CAN, for Appalachia, it matters a lot we appreciate you.

Thomas Watson: 41:36

Yeah, well, right back out to Brandon, thank you so much for having me. It's been a real pleasure and an honor. And I'm just so excited to see your work continue to thrive and, and you really being on the cutting edge of I think what it takes to get the workforce back to work. And we create these bridges that we've talked about throughout this podcast, so thank you, honored to be here.

Brandon Dennison: 41:56

Change in the Coalfields is a podcast created by Coalfield Development in the hills and hollers of West Virginia. This episode was hosted by Brandon Dennison, and produced and edited by JJN multimedia, become a part of our mission to rebuild the Appalachian economy by going to our website Coalfield-Development.org. To make a donation, you can email us anytime at info@Coalfield-Development.org and subscribe to our newsletter for more information on the podcast. You can follow us on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook and LinkedIn by searching Coalfield Development. Check back soon for more episodes.