Change in the Coalfields: A Podcast by Coalfield Development
Change in the Coalfields: A Podcast by Coalfield Development
Leslie Schaller
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Original intro/outro music:
"'Till I See Stars" by The Parachute Brigade
The sun does not always shine in West Virginia but the people always do, and so I'm delighted to be here.
Brandon Dennison:These are historic times in Appalachia. A lot has changed. A lot is changing now and a lot still needs to change. In our podcast, we talk with change makers right square in the middle of all this, working to ensure the changes for the good. You're listening to Change in the Coalfields podcast by Coalfield Development. I'm your host Brandon Dennison. Hello and welcome to Change in the Coalfields, a podcast by Coalfield Development. My name is Brandon, I'm your host, this week is really special, because we have Lesley Schaller, who's Director of Programs at ACEnet, Appalachian Center for Economic networks, a very innovative organization out of Southeast Ohio, on the cutting edge of a lot of change in Central Appalachia. Leslie and I are colleagues; we serve on the executive committee of CAN, the Central Appalachian Network, which is a cross-state collaboration. We work on a lot of agriculture corridor work through Refresh Appalachia. And Leslie, I don't know, probably 20 other things that we've done together over the years.
Leslie Schaller:Yeah, I was kind of reminiscing when I first heard of you, Brandon, and it was probably I mean, I know it was through CEO, through Marilyn and Pam, Marilyn who now works for Coalfield, when you were doing some green job organizing, so I mean, now it's like 12 years ago. So it's like, Oh, who's this new, interesting, young upstart? I've got to get to know this dude.
Brandon Dennison:And look at us now, all the work we've done.
Leslie Schaller:I know!
Brandon Dennison:Tell us a little bit about ACEnet, just in case listeners are not familiar. And then I'd love to dive into sort of the long version of how you've landed where you are as Director of Programs at this innovative organization.
Leslie Schaller:Sure. So you know, it's kind of confusing. We started in 1985. And we started as the Workaround Network, it was three, really grassroots community organizers, June Holley, Roger Wilkins, and Marty Vin, who were very new, starting a community based nonprofit. And the focus at that point in 1985, was to help folks start worker-owned co-ops. So that's sort of my initial, sort of ACEnet origin story is I am also one of eight original founders of the worker-owned restaurant corporation. So in the 80s, we really focused on the development of worker co-ops and about a dozen worker co-ops, aside from my own business, got started between the mid 80s to the early aughts. And it was really, I think, by the late 90s, I had served as a board member in those early years, it was determined that yes, co-op development is really important. We're gaining traction. But even a dozen worker-owned businesses started in a five year timeframe. You know, at best, we were creating maybe 100 jobs. So we really needed to add more tools and business incubation was sort of the first focus, we opened our first round of business incubator facilities in 1991. And then ACEnet has basically evolved to become more of a regional community based economic development organization. So it was really in the 90s, that we changed our name to the Appalachian Center for Economic Networks. But I guess the piece that I really want to underscore is, networks have always been sort of the critical, I would say intervention that we as an organization have focused on.
Brandon Dennison:Networks, the master of Appalachian networks. So actually, yeah, so let's go a little bit deeper on that. So this shift from your set of few dozen co-ops over a couple of years, a few 100 jobs. So the idea was instead of just starting your own co-ops, you are going to help other entrepreneurs in the region develop their businesses, as well, for more of a...would that be more of a systems level change?
Leslie Schaller:Yeah, I think you know, that shift. And, you know, I really believe now that networks continue to be so critical as we really forward an economic transition throughout Central Appalachia or, you know, the US or even internationally, networks really empower people to come together with a shared vision to align shared values to build those relationships. You know, you've heard me say over and over again, Brandon. So I'll apologize that this work is so grounded in relationships, that we can only make this work at the Speed of Trust. And I think what the staff, the growing staff of ESnet, discovered in the 90s, was that we needed multiple interventions. So the business incubation, intervention was pretty important. Infrastructure was needed for entrepreneurs to have startup and subsidized infrastructure, we really started to focus on sectors and do a deeper dive around product development assistance, access to market, access to capital. And then even in the 90s, we dabbled a little bit in very sector based workforce development. So those have always been kind of our primary, I would say interventions in terms of creating economic transition in the Appalachian counties that we work in. And then over time, because we've done, I would say, you know, a lot of work particularly in in sectors, oftentimes ESnet, I think, is perhaps way to synonymous with entrepreneurship in the food and ag sector. Because we do do a lot of other sector work, we recognize that we had to, we had to build peer networks, beyond just what we were doing in the southeastern Ohio counties. And that was very much our interest in the early 90s, to be part of the development of the central Appalachian network.
Brandon Dennison:So what makes networks go well, and what makes networks go bad? You mentioned trial, I
Leslie Schaller:I think, I think people don't always understand networks. You know, networks are kind of complex. And they really take what we often refer to as folks who are gonna step up and sort of actualize those networks as network weavers. So it's a lot about facilitation. I'm kind of a nerdy process person, so really being attentive to how to evolve networks, I think, is very important. It's, it's not something that, I don't know, is superficial. People might look at networks on the surface, and not exactly the underpinnings or, or how much attention that they need to really be facilitated, coordinated, always welcoming and engaging more stakeholders. So you know, complexity is different, I think a lot of times in networks than it is in more traditional economic development organizations, but networks are certainly a different model.
Brandon Dennison:The CAN network, Center Appalachian Network, recently hosted ARC co-chair Gail Manchin, and I think it was, it was you, you were certainly in the discussion where this phrase about the invisible work of a network came up and sort of the the work behind the work, so to speak. Does that phrase resonate with you?
Leslie Schaller:Oh, for sure, because I think a lot of times, you know, folks like you or I and the positions that we hold, we are trying to animate this work. I mean, these podcasts alone, you know, trying to lift a narrative about what's happening in Central Appalachia. But the invisible work is that there's folks at all levels, very, I would say engaged, and often empowered stakeholders who are somewhat, I don't know, a little under appreciated at times or are not even acknowledged. This is really in-depth grassroots work. And a lot of times I don't think we're making the people in the places where a lot of this activity is happening, as visible as we could be, should be, will be.
Brandon Dennison:That that is part of the goal of this of this podcast is to lift up as many variety of voices as we can. And were you there, so for CAN, a little bit of CAN history, were you there at the beginning days of CAN and what has CAN meant for you and for ACEnet, and for this region?
Leslie Schaller:Oh, I think it, for me, it's been the quintessential I would say development path in many ways. I mean, when we go to regional CAN meetings, I always feel like I'm going to the well. It's providing the sustenance, the care support, the sort of intellectual energy that I need to come back and do my work in our communities and with our folks. So I think, you know, CAN has evolved very much led by really, Carolyn Carpenter at the Benedum Foundation to help this kind of cross-regional connection between nonprofits and to support executive staff, really learn from one another. So, to a large degree, CAN was pretty small, and very much based at a Learning Network, I think, in the early years. Over the 90s and certainly, I would say, the last 20 years, we've, we've branched out, and now we're on the cusp of, I would say the next amazing iteration of CAN.
Brandon Dennison:Going a little bit further back. Well, you know, I'm curious to know where you grew up and how you landed in Southeast Ohio?
Leslie Schaller:Oh, sure. Okay, so a little bit about me, I would say that I've been most shaped by this fierce matriarchy of Irish women. So I, I grew up in a very ethnic working class, predominantly Catholic suburb, on the east side of Cleveland. In fact, my dad right before he passed in 2018, had just gotten his 70 year pin, as a member of Local 38 for the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers. Twelve years of Catholic education, you know, being challenged by...Notre Dames and Jesuit. My mother, always, I don't know, if it's a compliment, or a criticism that she always says that I'm, you know, just the iconic child of the 60s. So I just got infused, I think, through my upbringing, through my early education with that sense of sort of working class values, liberation theology really was coming to the forefront in the 60s as well. So you know, all girls Catholic high school, came to Ohio University as a freshman and 1971, you know, just totally blew my mind, opened up a lot of, I would say, negative conceptions I had of rural places, having grown up in a more urban/suburban environment. But what's interesting is my grandparents' generation came, mostly came to this area in central and southeastern Ohio first, when they came from Ireland and Germany. My grandfather, actually, my dad's dad, was an electrician in the mines in southwest Virginia. So something just called to me, I think, when I ended up on the doorstep of Ohio University. My freshman year, I always spent the summers throughout my undergrad and grad years and, you know, just got hooked. I can't imagine really living anywhere else.
Brandon Dennison:So you came to Athens via OU (Ohio University), and you never left.
Leslie Schaller:Exactly, exactly. You know, the first summer I spent, 1972 was the first year of operation for the Athens Farmers Market. In fact, we're doing a whole bunch of 50th anniversary celebrations through the market season this summer and fall. And I think that also opened up my eyes to the you know, allowing me to kind of get out of the bubble of campus and to deepen my understanding of opportunities and challenges of this region. So then, you know, after graduate school, it's like, oh, my god, what am I gonna do now? It's 1977. That's not exactly a great economy. I live in I think, traditionally, we're always the 88th county in terms of poverty in the state of Ohio. So a lot of people of my generation who came to school here and wanted to stay, we had to get entrepreneurial. I mean, we didn't explain it back in the day. But you know, many of us were kind of in the gig economy at that point, just creating a variety of different income patching solutions to be able to stay to buy land to farm to start small businesses.
Brandon Dennison:So what were some of your patches?
Leslie Schaller:Oh, God, so many different things. I mean, really I started as I always say, my illustrious career in food, back when I was an undergraduate working in the food service of the student union. So always a lot of, I would say, sometimes under-the-table restaurants and bartending work. I was always interested in how do I develop a higher value niche. So I used to do a lot of typing because again, you know, a good Catholic girl, I learned how to type at 14. And it was a skill that was not mastered by a lot of my peers in the 70s. So I did a lot of typing. And then I figured out that if I did typing for international students, many of them had more flexible income from their country's support. So I did the typing and really kind of rewriting, rewrote a lot of people's graduate papers and theses is I think. So yeah, because I have a really eclectic education to philosophy, English and art. So, you know, here I am, in that so called economic development field.
Brandon Dennison:Philosophy, English and art, were those your your majors?
Leslie Schaller:Yeah, those are all my majors both in graduate school and as an undergrad.
Brandon Dennison:And to this day, I know personally, you do a lot of reading and writing.
Leslie Schaller:You know, I always say I'm sort of a professional extrovert. A lot of what I like to do tends to be more solitary pastimes. So reading, writing, gardening, still kind of do a little bit of art. Maybe I'll get back to it a little bit more in my 70s, which soon come.
Brandon Dennison:What kind of art? Where are you? Are you into?
Leslie Schaller:Oh, my God. When I was in school, I did weaving and ceramics and oh, all sorts of studio arts. So you know, watercolors, oil, pastels, you name it.
Brandon Dennison:Did not know that about you?
Leslie Schaller:I know. Well, now I say the closest I come to doing art is like getting dressed. Because color coordination is very essential to me at all times. And gardening, you know, I think that's, those are probably my two creative outlets at this point in my life.
Brandon Dennison:Describe to me like when you're in the garden, what is it about that that's so nourishing for you?
Leslie Schaller:Well, you know, I'm much more into perennials now. I'm looking at my garden right now, which is like just overgrown with weeds. So I think I love, I love the textures at times, the you know how to organize things in terms of color combinations, probably more color and texture is important to me then companion planning in terms of inhibiting paths. Although I do know a little bit about that as well. It's something where I can get in the flow. And that's a space that I like to live in a lot of times, is just kind of lose track of time because I'm so hyper focused on what I'm doing.
Brandon Dennison:Does that connect to just your incredible staying power in nonprofits, turnover is very common. So it's good to have been involved in this work since the 70s. And then to stick with it and stay with it and iterate and evolve with it. It's honestly inspiring Leslie, truly, and it's a model for how, you know, change can happen if we have the patience and persistence to stick with it. And I'm sure a lot of people listening now are just wondering, how does Leslie stick with it so long?
Leslie Schaller:Yeah, well, I mean, I am a little crazy. So that helps. I mean, I've always had this drive. And I've become a very determined person. I think, you know, decade by decade, as I've aged, I've become more disciplined. But you know, I know you'd love alliteration too, Brandon. But I think that the staying power for me is I just take delight in this work. You know, I'm not one of those work life balance people. In fact, I'm the anti-role model probably there. So I just don't compartmentalize my life in a lot of ways that maybe other people do. It's just all part of one big, sort of complicated, chaotic way of being in the world. And that's what's works for me. And I think, you know, again, my parents, my my mom's 97, my dad, you know, without a lot of health issues probably would have made it to the late 90s, but passed in his mid 90s. So, you know, nurture and nature is part of it probably too. And then I guess back to that Irish matriarchy piece. I mean, you know, I just have grown more(stubborn) over time too, you know, no one's gonna dissuade me from doing what I want to do.
Brandon Dennison:What are some of the most, I mean it's almost probably an unfair question. but you mentioned the joy of the work - If I asked you, you know, two or three highlights of just some of your most joyful moments, doing community economic development in Central Appalachia, what pops to mind?
Leslie Schaller:Hitting the submit button before 11:59 on a federal grant.
Brandon Dennison:Every single time?
Leslie Schaller:Well, lately, I've been getting him in and between maybe 8 and 11 pm. But yeah, I mean, it's so and you know, this too, I take the work seriously. I don't take myself that seriously. Again, it's working with the people I work with. That's what inspires me and keeps me motivated, and has allowed me to stay in the roles. I always say at Casa (Nueva), you know, I'm still a worker/owner, I'm still the Business Director. I always say it'll be like probably the first line in my obituary, and I'll die a worker/owner unless I become so demented, they have to maybe fire me. So I don't know, everyone in my family is still pretty lucid into their mid to late 90s, though, hopefully, I'll still have a mind that adds some value to a worker-owned co-operative.
Brandon Dennison:So you mentioned the restaurant just to give folks a little bit of background on your restaurant.
Leslie Schaller:Speaking of passion, I mean, it's still probably one of the greatest passions in my life. We started in the spring of 1985, again, with the assistance of the staff of the workaround network. And basically Casa Nueva, started out in a response to the failure of another long-standing restaurant business that the founders had worked at, called Casa Que Pasa that started in the mid to late 70s. So it was already this community institution. And many of us, you know, suddenly found ourselves unemployed restaurant workers. So the co-op structure, I think, naively was very attractive to us. And, boy, I mean, speaking of journeys that have changed or really impacted my life has been learning how to make decisions at a very grassroots level. Democracy is time consuming. At Casa, we still make decisions by consensus, we have folks who have been worker/owners like me, who have been there 20-30 years still working together. So it's, it's just kind of a collective restaurant bar. We've been quite challenged recently by COVID. But thank you, federal government and the FDA, the paycheck Protection Program, really came to our aid in the last couple of years. So you know, we're, we're starting to come back. But even an institution like Casa, that has been such a, I would say, a community center, we were challenged, we've learned a lot in terms of our own resilience during these last couple of years.
Brandon Dennison:So similar to what I asked you about networks, and maybe it's a similar answer, but what does it take? I mean, I feel like co-ops, worker/ownership, it's a concept that's very popular in theory, but then when it's actually time to try something like that, it's just way harder than it looked on paper. What does it take to make a worker ownership structure actually function as a viable business?
Leslie Schaller:Well, and maintain it. I mean, I do, I'm probably a little bit biased. So I do you think a tenured membership helps because we learn from one another along the way. I think creating a welcoming space, you know, for new worker owners to join because you always need new energy, new ideas. And then it's still a business. So even though your governance might be focused on a co-operative structure, you still have to have all the right underpinnings in terms of running a successful business. So good, you know, well-skilled people in various positions from human resources to financial management, operations, marketing, you name it. So we're very, very flat in terms of our organization all these years, it's kind of remarkable that we've stayed aligned with those values. But I think that has also proven to be our staying power, is that everyone has that sense of accountability. It's equal rights, but it's equal responsibilities.
Brandon Dennison:Did you get to ACEnet through the restaurant, or was it the other way around?
Leslie Schaller:Well, it happens sort of simultaneously because ACEnet was founded in April of 1985 and that's when the old restaurant Casa Que Pasa was floundering. So we kind of came together here, we're, you know, restaurant folks who are going to be unemployed soon. And here was a new non-profit that wanted to help people start worker-owned businesses. So it was just, you know, totally synergistic. I went on to become a board member at ACEnet, and then a contractor. And then eventually, as we really started to develop stronger emphasis on food sector entrepreneurship, I came on full-time in 1992.
Brandon Dennison:That sort of reminds me of your point, Leslie, which I actually really appreciate, sort of pushing back on the life, the work-life balance. And sort of the over compartmentalization sounds like for you like your life, your way of being, it's all one thing, whether you're at ACEnet, or at your restaurant, or in your garden - it's it all happens pretty closely together.
Leslie Schaller:Or hanging out, you know, talking to vendors at the farmers market, or, you know, I mean, it's all connected, I see the interconnection of all things. So it's that complexity that I really revel in.
Brandon Dennison:Talking connections, interconnections - thinking about Appalachia, as a region, I think, specifically Central Appalachia, what are some of the biggest positive changes that you've seen? Maybe some pleasant surprises? And then what are some of the big changes that you've not seen yet, but you hope are on the near horizon?
Leslie Schaller:I do think we've made a lot of traction at a very smaller community base level. I think there's more trust happening because I think we've gotten, I don't know, I think, I think the sense of responsibility, foundations or non-profits, or agencies, or even elected officials have, we've seen a shift where it's like, we've got to listen to what's important to the people in these places. It's not, we're here to help, and we're gonna come in with this model, and you're gonna replicate it on the ground. So I feel like more stuff is percolating up. And we've created a system that really engenders more empowerment that allows us to think about who's not involved, how do we create a sense of inclusion? How do we be attentive to the need for diversity? So I feel like you know, we're working towards equity. Do we have a long way to go? Yes, we have an incredibly long way to go. But I think there's just more trust, at really listening to what people and people in place want for their communities. So I think we've gotten to be better listeners, and then better resource providers. So that's the change I'm seeing throughout Central Appalachia. I see it and, you know, partnerships in West Virginia. I see it in Southwest Virginia. I see it in Eastern Kentucky, you know, so that's very gratifying that there is this respect at the grassroots level. I think the other thing we've been able to do is create more cross-pollination between folks working in the region. So a lot of that is grounded in sector work. So if we're doing some trail development in Southeastern Ohio, we can learn from the leadership that's done trail development in Southwest Virginia or in West Virginia. So just making those connections between folks who are embedded in this work, who can really learn from one another. And it's not just the learning, it's just that spirit of almost spiritual support that we give to one another, I think is really important. And, and that's the power of CAN, especially CAN working groups that are animated by the sector work. So that's important. Where I still see a lot of room for change is all that equity work. You know, there's a lot, lots, lots, lots to do, and a lot to face in many ways. You know, where we have to dig deep within our own experiences and our own sense of influence and power, and figure out, you know, challenge ourselves, do our own sort of self inventory work. So I see that, I would say becoming more supported and explicit in a lot of the work, especially in the smaller places that can anchor organizations or, or any stakeholder groups are working on. And then sector wise, you know, green energy, oh, my god, Brandon, you know, where are all our green jobs, whether it's been food and ag, you know, whether it's in forestry, whether it's an energy, even in arts and culture and heritage, and tourism, we still need to do a lot of greening of our entrepreneurship and our entrepreneurial ecosystems.
Brandon Dennison:Arcing towards equity. Is that how you put it?
Leslie Schaller:Yeah.
Brandon Dennison:I love that.
Leslie Schaller:I just made that up.
Brandon Dennison:It would be a good autobiography title.
Leslie Schaller:Who has time for that? There's too much work to do. There's one more grant to write.
Brandon Dennison:Speaking of which, if so, if you're not writing your own book, I wonder do you have any book recommendations or anything good that you're reading at the present?
Leslie Schaller:Oh, my, you know, I go back and reread it, you know, (with an) English literature background. I have been reading a lot of Jane Austen again, that's probably weird. I read The New Yorker. I subscribe to The New York Times and The Washington Post. I'm sort of, I'm definitely a political geek, too. So I, I can't watch a lot of the January 6 hearings because I'm at work so I listen to those like around midnight sometimes so I can get my blood pressure up and have an even more restless sleep.
Brandon Dennison:My last couple questions here. I had a chance to tour your warehouse through a CAN event a couple months back and I had been there years, years back. And it just keeps iterating and filling out, there's just new innovation in that warehouse. Could you describe for someone who's not been there sort of walk us through that building and everything that's happening in that building? From your perspective, because I think it would give such hope to our listeners for the future of our region.
Leslie Schaller:Well, and I think the thing to know, you know, to kind of reel back a little bit, is ACEnet has two different business incubation campuses - one in the city of Athens, and one in the city of Nelsonville. So five buildings, 135,000 square feet. The facility that you most recently visited was on our Nelsonville business incubator campus where we have a 5000-square-foot office building, and then this much larger 100,000-square-foot facility where I would say it's been in flux. Really, over the last 15 years, we've been able to build out that facility in a way that allows many of our entrepreneurs who maybe started on our Athens campus to grow and enlarge their operation. So it's just you know, a lot more square footage, a lot more physical capacity, in terms of roof height and all that. So if you walk in the front door, you're going to see a variety of office space. In the Nelsonville facility, you're going to walk into a much larger open area. I think where are you visited when we had co-chair Manchin come in April really highlighted the what we refer to as the Food and Farm Enterprise Center. So that's about 20,000 square feet of the overall footprint. One of our expansion firms right now Milo's Whole World Gourmet, is building out a separate thermal processing facility. So sort of a building within our building. We have what we refer to as our veggie prep room. We have a meat processing room, in that space, huge warehousing, because a lot of the work that we're doing with other CAN members, Coalfield with Appalachian Harvest, Appalachian Sustainable Development is a huge partner on our food distribution corridor. So that's really, sort of, ground zero for a lot of that aggregation, and distribution. And then if you go a little bit further into the back of the building, there's the whole Woods Center. So we have a number of entrepreneurs who are developing a variety of different wood product lines, from very beautiful artisan cabinetry, to all sorts of wood fabrication. One of our anchor businesses in that section of the Wood Center is Ohio is Home, and Red Tail Design. So if you go into pretty much any, I would say, a craft brewery in the state of Ohio, probably those beer tap handles were fabricated in the Athens facility by Tim Martin of Red Tail Design. So again, diversity, you know, diverse ecosystems, even within sectors. And then on the other side of that square footage, beyond the wood and the food sector footprint, we have a larger manufacturer that is doing, continuing to take up more square footage in our facility. So you know, it's really a mix, and it's really changing, I probably touch the food and farm activities the most because that's sort of been the through-line of all my work for really since 1985. So I'm much more up-to-date on that. But follow us, go to our website, you know, ACEnetworks.org, sign-up for our e-newsletter, because we're always showcasing the enterprises in the entrepreneurs in any of our facilities, beyond as well, the huge client network of folks that we work with throughout the region.
Brandon Dennison:Well, thank you for your time today. I mean, I know I really do personally know how busy and full your weeks are, and, but also just thank you for your leadership, your collaboration, and your incredible staying power. It's it genuinely is an inspiration to me, I'm honored to get to work with you in this region. And I, at the end of the day, there's lots of challenges, but I feel hopeful for the direction that we're headed. So thank you for everything.
Leslie Schaller:Right. And I so deeply appreciate you, Brandon, you know, to take on the leadership, the change that you've been able to foster, the incredibly important work that Coallfield was doing. You know, you are one of my inspirations.
Brandon Dennison:Thank you. We'll just keep trying together, right?
Leslie Schaller:Yep, exactly.
Brandon Dennison:Working towards equity. I love it. All right. Well, thanks so much. Take care.
Leslie Schaller:Bye bye.
Brandon Dennison:Change in the Coalfields is a podcast created by Coalfield Development in the hills and hollers of West Virginia. This episode was hosted by Brandon Dennison, and produced and edited by JJN multimedia. Become a part of our mission to rebuild the Appalachian economy by going to our website Coalfield-Development.org. To make a donation, you can email us anytime at info@Coalfield-Development.org and subscribe to our newsletter for more information on the podcast. You can follow us on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook and LinkedIn by searching Coalfield Development. Check back soon for more episodes.